Welcome to
The Messy Middle Matters
The Messy Middle Matters is a podcast that shines a much-needed spotlight on the workplace’s unsung heroes—the ones who work in, survive in, and often thrive in the “messy middle.” This is the space where real work gets done, but rarely celebrated: the glue work, the emotional labor, the silent balancing acts, and the subversive strategies that keep everything moving forward.
Because in the messy middle, your work is essential—even when it’s invisible.
Defining The Messy Middle
The messy middle is where resilience, creativity, and adaptability are most needed—and where they are often tested the hardest. It’s the phase where people and teams either break down or break through. When approached with intention, support, and the right frameworks, the messy middle can become a time of deep transformation rather than just struggle.
The goal isn’t to avoid the messy middle—it’s to navigate it with tools, strategies, and communities that make it more manageable, meaningful, and ultimately successful.
Share Your Thoughts
We’d love to hear your thoughts on The Messy Middle Matters! What resonated with you? What topics do you want us to explore? Your feedback helps shape future episodes—
let us know what’s on your mind!
Partner With Us
Interested in sponsoring, advertising, or collaborating with The Messy Middle Matters? We’d love to explore opportunities to work together.
Reach out to us at podcast@peopleprocessthings.com to start the conversation!
Hosted by
Indra Klavins
I’m Indra, and I know the messy middle because I’ve lived it—again and again.
To me, the messy middle is that moment when you regret having the audacity to start. You’re knee-deep in a project, transition, or crisis, unable to see the way forward—like cleaning out a closet, surrounded by piles of clothes, wondering why you even began. That’s when you pause, take a breath, and get back to basics—revisiting the business brief, remembering why you threw the party, or reminding yourself why that closet needed cleaning in the first place.
I’ve faced the messy middle throughout my career. At TD Ameritrade, I struggled to break through the glass ceiling. At WeWork, I scaled an organization so fast that every process we built was instantly outdated. At Verizon, I rebuilt trust in a fractured global team. So yeah, I know the messy middle well.
I believe in bringing people along for the ride—no jargon, no pretending the hard parts didn’t happen. Too often, leaders only show the polished outcome, leaving the struggle out of the story. This podcast is about making the messy middle visible, helping folks feel seen, and redefining success along the way.
Amanda Jane Lee
I’m Amanda! I’ve spent over a decade as (what I like to call) a “get stuff done-er”, with titles such as project manager, program manager, delivery manager, or just manager. I’ve worked at companies in different industries, in different stages, and of different sizes. I haven’t seen it all, but I’ve seen a lot.
At every job, I’ve helped teams navigate the messy middle—the space between big ideas and actually getting things done. I’ve been the first technical program manager at startups, navigating blank space and ambiguity. I’ve also been a tiny cog at established companies, fighting ineffective processes that exist “because that’s the way we’ve always done it”. Despite the size or shape of the company, they can face similar problems: priorities compete, processes break down, or teams aren’t aligned. And they need to work through the mess to get to the other side.
That’s why I think “The Messy Middle Matters”... matters. This podcast is all about sharing our experience of making sense of that in-between space—the part that isn’t always glamorous but always important, and always present. I’m excited to dig into the challenges, the lessons, and the real talk about what it takes to make progress when things aren’t so clear-cut.
The Messy Middle Matters is a People Process Things production.